2010-07-23 11:54:18 +shepherd ENKI-][: Tribal membership... ?
2010-07-23 11:54:26 +VIPPER MeganPoe: You have lost any respect I had for you.
2010-07-23 11:54:39 * LadyGaga haunts fabulously
2010-07-23 11:55:11 MeganPoe VIPPER: looool. I'm not a fan of her, jsyk. o_o I simply enjoy costume/stage makeup.
2010-07-23 11:55:12 +ENKI-][ shepherd: humans have this evolutionary detritus left-over from the days when we were limited to groups of about fifty max, where all other groups were 'the enemy'
2010-07-23 11:55:57 +VIPPER ENKI-][: That's still around in the form of nationalism and patriotism.
2010-07-23 11:56:05 +VIPPER Holding that your group is somehow superior.
2010-07-23 11:56:13 +ENKI-][ shepherd: it's why you see jocks versus nerds versus goths versus punks versus gangstas versus fans of
2010-07-23 11:56:19 +VIPPER And that other groups are inherently inferior.
2010-07-23 11:56:19 +ENKI-][ VIPPER: yes, that too
2010-07-23 11:56:21 +shepherd ENKI-][: they were never "limited", and "not all groups" were the enemy. And aleast that time they were called Skirmishes and not Genocide.
2010-07-23 11:56:35 +VIPPER ENKI-][: It's called a collective identity.
2010-07-23 11:56:42 +VIPPER ENKI-][: You equate yourself with the group.
2010-07-23 11:56:53 +shepherd ENKI-][: I don't know, I don't live by those dumb labels, then again I'm pretty anti-social for this very superficiality.
2010-07-23 11:56:56 +VIPPER Which is why things like patriotism happen.
2010-07-23 11:56:59 +ENKI-][ tribalism is something i have a problem with, mainly because it has limited positive applications and tends to cause people to band together and kill each other
2010-07-23 11:57:17 +shepherd ENKI-][: Oh, we're not banding together and killing each other now? have you ever heard of nations
2010-07-23 11:57:19 +ENKI-][ it's also pretty important to capitalism
2010-07-23 11:57:23 +VIPPER Collective identity can be useful or dangerous.
2010-07-23 11:57:31 +ENKI-][ shepherd: tribalism is the essence of nationalism
2010-07-23 11:57:58 +VIPPER It all depends on the size of the group.
2010-07-23 11:58:09 +ENKI-][ nationality doesn't matter worth a rat's ass, unless you're a patriot, in which case you have set your individual identity aside and replaced it with a fiction
2010-07-23 11:58:24 +VIPPER If the group encompasses of all mankind, it's pretty useful, as people can then work together easier for a common goal.
2010-07-23 11:58:37 +ENKI-][ VIPPER: up until the aliens show up and become the new 'other'
2010-07-23 11:58:44 +VIPPER ENKI-][: lawl
2010-07-23 11:58:50 +ENKI-][ or, i dunno, maybe humans turn against non-human animals
2010-07-23 11:59:00 +ENKI-][ or the new sentient robots
2010-07-23 11:59:07 +VIPPER Patriotism is an extreme version of collective identity.
2010-07-23 11:59:17 +VIPPER You feel proud for the actions of other in the group.
2010-07-23 11:59:21 +shepherd ENKI-][: Also, tribes are not Limited, they were never limited. If we're talking about North American tribes for example, they took care of their own habitat and had healthy routines. The reason they didn't expand to all fuckall is because they didn't harvest, create, or use more than they needed. They also didn't then hold all that extra under lock and key.
2010-07-23 11:59:23 +ENKI-][ group identity is kind of a shitty trade-off in general
2010-07-23 11:59:27 +VIPPER You have equated yourself with the group.
2010-07-23 12:00:30 +ENKI-][ shepherd: tribes of non-human primates are generally somewhat limited. humans have a larger upper limit -- about 250 close friends, if i recall, who make up the core of the tribe. with gorillas it's fifty or seventy five
2010-07-23 12:01:00 +shepherd ENKI-][: What's limiting them exactly.
2010-07-23 12:01:15 LadyGaga I like how we went from Lady Gaga to this.
2010-07-23 12:01:21 +VIPPER shepherd: Cohesiveness.
2010-07-23 12:01:24 LadyGaga inportb++
2010-07-23 12:01:33 +ENKI-][ shepherd: the capacity for people to accurately simulate the internal workings of the minds of other people
2010-07-23 12:01:33 +VIPPER shepherd: Also, I agree with you, "tribes" can get larger.
2010-07-23 12:01:34 +shepherd ENKI-][: ... lawl. :l
2010-07-23 12:01:38 +shepherd ENKI-][: HEre
2010-07-23 12:01:41 +shepherd ENKI-][: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism
2010-07-23 12:01:43 @GameOver Title: Tribalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
2010-07-23 12:01:51 +VIPPER shepherd: But then "tribes" are called "nations"
2010-07-23 12:02:05 +VIPPER But the principle of collective identity remains the same.
2010-07-23 12:02:20 +ENKI-][ that's why you get cliche behavior in bigger groups. if everyone acts the same, you can generalize more easily, and so even tribe members you have never met are predictable
2010-07-23 12:02:39 +shepherd ENKI-][: I agree, just look at a circumcision, is there a better example of homogenization
2010-07-23 12:02:59 +ENKI-][ shepherd: i don't think circumcision is a good example of homogenization
2010-07-23 12:03:12 +shepherd ENKI-][: Oh, are you one of those who still holds strong to it being "medically necessary"
2010-07-23 12:03:24 +ENKI-][ no
2010-07-23 12:03:30 +shepherd Well that's at least a relief.
2010-07-23 12:03:59 +ENKI-][ circumcision does not correlate well to a group of easily predictable behaviors, shepherd, and it also is not out in the open and obvious
2010-07-23 12:04:07 +ENKI-][ people wear clothes over their penises usually
2010-07-23 12:04:38 +VIPPER Maybe in the civilized world.
2010-07-23 12:04:41 +shepherd ENKI-][: It's generally understood in the USA that one is circumsised, yet nobody really can explain why. But you can form your own opinions and blame the puritans or something
2010-07-23 12:05:12 +ENKI-][ a better example is the sideways baseball cap and overly baggy pants thing. you can reasonably reliably predict the actions of a white guy who wears clothes taken directly out of a gangster rap video.
2010-07-23 12:05:59 +shepherd I suppose for those who spend all their days playing video games and watching TV are very sensitive to what they see
2010-07-23 12:05:59 +ENKI-][ i live in the united states, shepherd, and i am not circumcised. few people i have met here are circumcised. it's not done much in this area, i suppose
2010-07-23 12:06:58 +VIPPER Circumcision is only done is some areas very frequently.
2010-07-23 12:06:59 +ENKI-][ lame
2010-07-23 12:07:15 +VIPPER In places like Texas, I assume it is not done as much.
2010-07-23 12:07:33 +ENKI-][ VIPPER: i imagine that it is done more in texas, tbh
2010-07-23 12:08:15 +VIPPER ENKI-][: Why?
2010-07-23 12:08:17 +ENKI-][ circumcision is a symptom of an authoritarian society with an emphasis on social control of reproduction.
2010-07-23 12:08:45 +ENKI-][ anywhere with a lot of angry patriarchs is likely to fit that criterion
2010-07-23 12:08:59 +VIPPER ENKI-][: Or a reactionary society with an emphasis on tradition.
2010-07-23 12:09:00 +ENKI-][ it also meshes nicely with patriarchal religions with a lot of dogma
2010-07-23 12:09:17 +shepherd VIPPER: Yea, and where does that tradition come from? :l
2010-07-23 12:09:24 +VIPPER The Jews can hardly be considered inherently authoritarian, but they practice it, because it is a tradition.
2010-07-23 12:09:38 +ENKI-][ VIPPER: well, yes. but a matriarchal society can be reactionary and traditional yet neither violently dogmatic nor obsessed with social control of reproduction
2010-07-23 12:09:40 +shepherd ENKI-][: Which is a surprise that you say you and your friends arn't, when I think the circumsision ratio is something like 80% all over the US
2010-07-23 12:09:59 +VIPPER shepherd: Probably just a guy in ancient Judea who thought it would be a good idea to cut off his foreskin, and then claimed it was the word of God.
2010-07-23 12:10:44 +shepherd VIPPER: I don't think in t5he USA that it even has anything to do with GOD.
2010-07-23 12:10:44 +ENKI-][ shepherd: i live in new england. the east coast and the west coast are godless liberal heathens like me, and everything inbetween is god's lightning country ;-)
2010-07-23 12:10:52 +shepherd ENKI-][: xDDD
2010-07-23 12:11:06 +VIPPER I live in New England, too.
2010-07-23 12:11:39 +ENKI-][ few things have to do with god in religion, tbh
2010-07-23 12:12:24 +ENKI-][ jesus had some pretty good ideas, but christianity has become a tribalist badge-trading conspiracy. it's an economy of symbol exchange
2010-07-23 12:12:38 +shepherd ENKI-][: And you dislike this right?
2010-07-23 12:12:43 +VIPPER I believe it said something is Psalms that one day in the distant future, circumcision would be meaningless.
2010-07-23 12:13:08 +ENKI-][ if you are kind and helpful to people, you aren't a 'christian'. if you wear a cross and attend church, it doesn't matter how many people you kill for kicks
2010-07-23 12:13:22 +Kanako VIPPER: Now find that psalm
2010-07-23 12:14:09 +VIPPER Kanako: I'm not going upstairs to brush off my old Bible to find one of hundreds of dog-eared pages.
2010-07-23 12:14:13 +VIPPER Fuck that shit.
2010-07-23 12:14:39 +ENKI-][ shepherd: there is a problem with the spectacular society, and it relates to the exploitation of the tribal instinct. when the meaning of things becomes a supersymbolic exchange divorced from any semblance of reality, nothing can be trusted
2010-07-23 12:14:59 +VIPPER I don't know why I was circumcized, but it probably has something to do with the fact that it's tradition.
2010-07-23 12:15:17 +ENKI-][ and essentially tribalism is used along with the ego reflex to translate impulses into increasingly abstracted arenas
2010-07-23 12:20:06 +ENKI-][ shepherd: my point is that the impulse to be part of a group is used in order to translate interests and passions into saleable products by creating commodities that act as membership badges for a group related to any given interest and then flanderizing the behavior to the point where the poseur can merely buy his or her way into a passion without skill or interest
2010-07-23 12:20:35 +VIPPER ENKI-][: Can you ever speak in plain English?
2010-07-23 12:20:42 +ENKI-][ it is precisely this kind of con that keeps capitalism alive, because people will pay lots of money for membership badges
2010-07-23 12:20:52 +ENKI-][ VIPPER: that was plain english
2010-07-23 12:21:00 +shepherd ENKI-][: In our society If you don't have the capacity to purchase you're not worth anything. I agree, it also frustrates me that most people don't study based on a passion anymore rather where the money blows instead.
2010-07-23 12:22:18 +Daern shepherd: Hey, I'm planning to major in Philosophy. That's the damn OPPOSITE of where the money blows. xD
2010-07-23 12:22:27 +shepherd Daern: Congratulations.
2010-07-23 12:22:32 +VIPPER Daern: It's where fame goes, though.
2010-07-23 12:22:34 +ENKI-][ VIPPER: i guess i could give an example. buying a che shirt is now a substitute for being a communist revolutionary, and the two have become more or less interchangable in the eyes of anyone who isn't a communist revolutionary without a che shirt. this is because someone realized that people would pay lots of money for che shirts if they thought wearing a che shirt would give them access to the
2010-07-23 12:22:34 +ENKI-][ communist revolutionary club without actually making any effort
2010-07-23 12:22:49 +shepherd ENKI-][: And a Castro hat :D
2010-07-23 12:22:58 +Daern VIPPER: Not anymore, it isn't.
2010-07-23 12:22:59 +ENKI-][ yes!
2010-07-23 12:23:37 +VIPPER ENKI-][: I see. By associating certain stereotypes to certain groups, one thinks that they can be a part of that group by emulating that stereotype.
2010-07-23 12:23:55 +ENKI-][ Daern: perhaps you should move to france. you can make a living writing incomprehensible rubbish constructed mostly of in-jokes and doing lots of IRL trolling
2010-07-23 12:23:57 +VIPPER Without even having to do anything.
2010-07-23 12:23:58 +shepherd VIPPER: I'm not so sure about it being an emulation when it's followed by millions
2010-07-23 12:24:23 +ENKI-][ VIPPER: exactly. many of these groups are in fact manufactured by market forces
2010-07-23 12:24:25 +shepherd Many people don't even understand the symbolism of many things they do anymore to be honest.
2010-07-23 12:24:40 +Daern ENKI-][: But isn't that how it's always been? There will always be very few true believers in any given cause or group, and the rest will be followers because of trendines? It's just more widespread, like everything, because of the interconnectedness of the modern world.
2010-07-23 12:24:41 +VIPPER ENKI-][: Why didn't you just say what I said? It'd save you a lot of space.
2010-07-23 12:24:56 +ENKI-][ VIPPER: it doesn't much matter to people what group it is, either
2010-07-23 12:25:07 +shepherd Well guys I need to take a shower.
2010-07-23 12:25:15 +ENKI-][ Daern: i don't much like true believers either, but that's another rant
2010-07-23 12:25:23 +shepherd im sweating so much, it's just gross.
2010-07-23 12:25:27 +shepherd Tsau
2010-07-23 12:25:28 +Daern ENKI-][: So who exactly DO you like? xD
2010-07-23 12:25:29 +VIPPER Ohey EpicCyndaquil.
2010-07-23 12:25:34 +VIPPER Daern: He likes ranting.
2010-07-23 12:25:39 +ENKI-][ Daern: my point is that group membership is used in order to productize things.
2010-07-23 12:25:42 +VIPPER He gets sexually exciting by ranting.
2010-07-23 12:25:52 +VIPPER Intellectual debate makes ENKI-][ horny.
2010-07-23 12:25:56 +Daern ENKI-][: I don't think productize is a word. But I see your point.
2010-07-23 12:26:13 +Daern ENKI-][: But I think you're raving about a symptom, here.
2010-07-23 12:26:30 +Daern ENKI-][: And no, I'm not about to launch off on a VIPPER-esque commie rant. xD
2010-07-23 12:26:39 +VIPPER lol
2010-07-23 12:26:55 +ENKI-][ Daern: i tend to like people who think and analyze. the difference between a poseur and a true believer is that a true believer understands the dogma he or she parrots while a poseur parrots it without understanding it. both are problematic because neither questions the dogma
2010-07-23 12:26:56 +Kanako Communism is great...
2010-07-23 12:26:58 +VIPPER If communists are commies, are capitalists cappies?
2010-07-23 12:27:05 +Kanako ...if you have no idea, how economy works
2010-07-23 12:27:36 +VIPPER Capitalism is great if you're a capitalist.
2010-07-23 12:27:40 +iConfused Daern++
2010-07-23 12:28:02 +VIPPER Communism is very bad if you are a capitalist, however.
2010-07-23 12:28:16 +ENKI-][ communism and capitalism both suck balls for everybody, and we need a new system that is fundamentally different from both -- preferably one based neither on labour nor money. agreed?
2010-07-23 12:28:21 LadyGaga DID SOMEONE SAY...CAPITALISM?
2010-07-23 12:28:46 +iConfused LadyGaga, Yes, it was said several times, actually
2010-07-23 12:29:07 +Daern ENKI-][: It just seems like the whole of consumerism is predicated on faith in the modern system. You have to have faith that the money you use is worth something, which is even more difficcult to assertain given the propensity of people to turn to virtual monetary transactions these days. You also have to believe that the millions of others you are forced to deal with are dealing in good faith. Oh, and you have to believe in the st
2010-07-23 12:29:09 +VIPPER ENKI-][: Both are based on property, actually.
2010-07-23 12:29:50 +Daern ENKI-][: As it stands, it seems like the modern capitalist system is doomed to fail, but communism isn't a viable alternative because it would require widespread suspension of basic human greed and possesiveness.
2010-07-23 12:30:02 +ENKI-][ Daern: consumerism is based on faith only for the professionals. mostly it's based on ignorance.
2010-07-23 12:30:18 +VIPPER Daern: Not necessarily. Mutual aid can be motivated by greed.
2010-07-23 12:30:41 +ENKI-][ most people have a total hissy fit when i mention that money is imaginary
2010-07-23 12:30:51 +Daern VIPPER: Have fun convincing others of that. Just because it's true doesn't mean it's marketable.
2010-07-23 12:31:12 +VIPPER As Kropotkin pointed out, mutual aid is useful for evolution and is mutually beneficial to both parties.
2010-07-23 12:31:26 +Daern ENKI-][: Good point--most people don't even know how the system works. That, I would argue, is a type of faith--they take it as a given that the system works, and don't question it.
2010-07-23 12:31:27 +VIPPER Also, Kropotkin had the mightiest beard known to man.
2010-07-23 12:32:02 +VIPPER http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/Encyclopedia/Kropotkin/kropotkin2.gif BEARD POWER
2010-07-23 12:32:46 +iConfused ENKI-][, orly? Because they know it's true?
2010-07-23 12:33:01 +Kanako 18:30 <+ENKI-][> most people have a total hissy fit when i mention that money is imaginary
2010-07-23 12:33:25 +Kanako If you understand how banks work, you know that stuff :P
2010-07-23 12:33:32 +VIPPER But you have to put aside that fact for practicality.
2010-07-23 12:33:58 +Daern As soon as specie stopped backing every single dollar, money became imaginary and based entirely on belief in the system and the government.
2010-07-23 12:33:59 +ENKI-][ i'm not really blaming faith or ignorance here, to be honest
2010-07-23 12:34:12 +VIPPER Most structures, when you look at them, are actually imaginary.
2010-07-23 12:34:36 +Daern VIPPER: Don't get me started on what's real.
2010-07-23 12:34:38 +ENKI-][ lot of schooling consists of replacing the parents with money in terms of the source of psychological protection
2010-07-23 12:34:45 +Daern VIPPER: Because I have a whole rant on this.
2010-07-23 12:34:49 +ENKI-][ money acts as a security blanket for a lot of people
2010-07-23 12:34:58 +VIPPER Daern: I have rants on everything on existence.
2010-07-23 12:35:03 +VIPPER *in
2010-07-23 12:35:10 +Daern ENKI-][: That is a fascinating way to look at it; never thought of it that way.
2010-07-23 12:35:26 +ENKI-][ when you tell them that money is imaginary, you are telling them that the invisible shield that prevents them from being hurt isn't there
2010-07-23 12:35:48 +iConfused Inportrants could be a REALLY interesting blog
2010-07-23 12:35:51 +iConfused ;)
2010-07-23 12:36:07 +ENKI-][ it's the same kind of visceral reaction you get when you tell a very religious yet insecure person that god doesn't exist
2010-07-23 12:36:39 +VIPPER iConfused: It would be dominated by ENKI-][, Apple_, and I.
2010-07-23 12:36:44 +ENKI-][ or you tell a frightened little kid that their blanket won't protect them from the monster under the bed